tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post4433047962307587282..comments2023-11-05T06:16:56.961-05:00Comments on the Carpentry Way: Skin Deep (III)Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-59908278206918480642014-04-12T04:57:51.018-04:002014-04-12T04:57:51.018-04:00This is very attractive web blog view to woodworki...This is very attractive web blog view to woodworking.Thanks for sharing the useful information.art galleryhttp://www.artisanmalaysia.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-41085135394677476122012-01-19T19:31:31.658-05:002012-01-19T19:31:31.658-05:00(you don't have to post this, but thanks for t...(you don't have to post this, but thanks for the info on the house you mentioned, quite interesting to see. I assume there's always a compromise between function and form, and clearly you and most master woodworkers strive for a synergy of the two.. maybe not Ruhlmann.)<br /><br />WillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-81346676551177428532012-01-19T19:21:15.632-05:002012-01-19T19:21:15.632-05:00Chris,
thanks for the response. The more I read y...Chris,<br />thanks for the response. The more I read your blog after that article the more I learned, and a lot of it was very much interesting, and within my interests! As for plywood "glu-lam" I still find a big difference between OSB and a true 7-ply (or most odd numbers) structure. I also doubt chip-boards durability long term, even in some of the "paralam" beams you may find. At the same time, I also think that homemade laminates are intriguing: I plan on laminating a 3-way of ash/oak for minimalist sawhorses, and larger numbers exhibit interest if you chamfer edges, etc, in various ways. It comes to personal opinion and taste but I prefer the minimalist approach on structural issues when possible because of the state of wood in general.. it's not being replenished in the rate we use it. Of course, technology and industry have a way of reversing these kinds of trends.<br /><br />Either way, I guess we can both agree that more attractive laminations could be standardized, and they currently aren't too beautiful beyond their function, but I would say that this topic is a poor starting point to your blog!! While interesting, I was finding a lot beyond philosophy in most other threads!! I really must compliment you on your Mahogany chairs, quite beautiful, and I normally don't take much interest in sitting devices. Also, do you have a link to your Japanese splay sawhorse design? Thanks for the persistent effort for improvement on your own work and the whole of woodworking.<br /><br />WillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-46636136798712925282012-01-15T09:51:14.660-05:002012-01-15T09:51:14.660-05:00Will,
great to hear from you and thanks for takin...Will,<br /><br />great to hear from you and thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I am perfectly fine with structures which demonstrate truth to materials, so plywood bent laminations, from chairs to tennis racquets are fine by me. It is a strong and efficient means of constructing something, and it is not trying to hide what it is. I have nothing against plywood as such, except for the fact that it is getting crappier by the day, and I don't consider it a material associated to fine furniture.<br /><br />Given a choice between a living space with solid beams overhead and glu-lams, I would choose the solid beams. Sometimes structural situations call for sections which are not reasonable in solid wood, so glue-lams, lvl's and structural steel can be used instead, but I'd rather not see that stuff myself. In the Greene and Greene Blacker house there are attractive timber trusses in the living space which are entirely decorative, the actual load carried by steel I-beams concealed above. So there is a point for me even where truth-to-materials be damned, I'd rather see timber. Take that too far though, where everything is faux, and I'll run in the other direction.<br /><br />~CAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-63086003571536508142012-01-15T07:54:19.049-05:002012-01-15T07:54:19.049-05:00I'm with Lorne, I find the perfect word for Ru...I'm with Lorne, I find the perfect word for Ruhlmann's shapes to be "unapproachable", and indeed some of that effect may be from the somewhat gaudy veneer as well. But it was definitely worth seeing due to its uniqueness. Also, thanks for sharing Lorne, I'd like to see an example of the rounded edge you're talking about.<br /><br />Chris, I was just wondering what you thought of LAMINATED wood. This is regular wood that is inordinately strong and purposeful, and yet can take unnatural yet organic shapes and curves. And in many cases, while veneer's goal is to hide, laminated or "ply" wood can REVEAL the unique nature of the structure. So, in other words I find it utilitarian and attractive, with a bonus for being both simultaneously. I don't think I'm alone in this regard.. for example, I lost anything I could claim as unique aesthetic appreciation it when it went mainstream and I realized it's one of Chipotle's two token accents, which are debatably the most prominent "materials" accents in any restaurant chain, possibly in history. At least that I can think of... Anyway, the raw structural appeal NOT shown in Ruhlmann's illusory work is the very reason I find it in some cases more attractive than a solid piece of wood, which can express (for me) more of an undertone of excess for the same amount of strength. Example, a laminated beam is much stronger than a normal timber in less space and therefore has a fundamental minimalist elegance. But to appreciate it one certainly has to realize the differences between say OSB, the edge of a skateboard, and a piece of MDF gilded in an exotic hardwood veneer.<br /><br />Anyway, after reading such an interesting and thorough article on veneers explicitly, and since you're an advocate of solid wood, I am wondering your perception of lamination OF veneers aka plywood as both structural and visual art. Nothing is hidden or deceptive, while being stronger than nature's orginal form, and therefore has earned the right to express itself in some of the more unnatural ways for which your rightfully criticize veneer. While I share your general distaste for cosmetic veneers for various reasons, including how they inevitably age or wear, I find enough "veneers" (albeit very thick ones) arranged purposefully to sometimes add more effect and use for the same amount of tree.<br /><br />Thanks for a very thorough and interesting blog; I have been directed here twice in 2 days from browsing various topics and I have figured out, bookmarked.<br /><br />WillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-21587857997496806182011-10-21T14:33:36.111-04:002011-10-21T14:33:36.111-04:00I can't disagree with anything there. . .
Ac...I can't disagree with anything there. . . <br /><br />Actually, I'm not overly fond of Ruhlmann's shapes. They are a bit too unapproachable for me - I'd be afraid of kicking a leg by mistake and breaking it.<br /><br />It's really the veneering techniques of his craftsmen that I would like to discover. I've seen round corners where the veneer looks like it has been stretched like a rubber sheet. There's no sign of any seam, and the figure seems continuous. Amazing.Lorne Carmichaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-33452573447514194172011-10-20T22:36:12.972-04:002011-10-20T22:36:12.972-04:00Lorne,
thanks for taking the time to post such a ...Lorne,<br /><br />thanks for taking the time to post such a thoughtful comment.<br /><br />I note your comment that,<br /><br />"By divorcing veneers from the task of looking like solid wood he actually liberated the craft, took it in new directions and lifted it to new heights."<br /><br />While I agree Ruhlmann took cabinet making in new directions, and that the work was executed with consummate skill, and that this 'divorce' between structure and form that veneer makes possible might be 'liberation' of a sort, in the end I don't like the direction he took. 'Freedom' from one thing is very often converted into enslavement to another thing. <br /><br />With every medium there is a spectrum of adulteration in the materials made possible by technology, from raw state to a point where we no longer recognize the material for what it is. Indeed, we live in a world where the vast majority of materials we interact with and consume are highly adulterated. And yes this is often done for entirely rational reasons. <br /><br />But, for me, when it comes to wood, I draw a line in regards to paths I will and will not walk down, preferring to eschew the particular advantages conferred by veneer, for the reasons I've laid out, and work to make objects with solid wood. <br /><br />While Ruhlmann designed some beautiful objects, it is also possible to design equally beautiful pieces (which cannot duplicate Ruhlmann's work any more than veneer can truly replicate solid wood) using solid wood and that is where I choose to engage the medium.<br /><br />On the one hand I can appreciate the form and beautiful craft of Ruhlmann's work (and yes I realize he was a designer not a maker), yet I can also decide that it is not the sort of work I wish to pursue myself. Each artisan must make their own choices for the reasons that matter to them.<br /><br />~ChrisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-73783487989259809002011-10-20T13:24:01.912-04:002011-10-20T13:24:01.912-04:00Hi Chris
I came across your blog while on a searc...Hi Chris<br /><br />I came across your blog while on a search for information about the veneering techniques of Emile Ruhlmann, so that I might gain something that might aid my own attempts at veneering. I've been working in solid wood for thirty years and only recently started using veneers. I'd like to explain why I don't agree with everything in your post.<br /><br />Like you, I suspect, I've spent many hours at auctions looking at old furniture, seeking inspiration and maybe a bargain or two. Many times I've been disappointed to discover a piece that looked solid was in fact covered in "cheap" veneer. <br /><br />Of course at the time, those veneers might have been expensive relative to other veneers - I have no idea. But the purpose of using those veneers was to give the impression that the article was made from a scarcer and more expensive material - i.e., figured solid wood. It was a step above the contemporaneous practice of painting oak woodgrain on pine, or rosewood grain on mahogany, but the purpose was the same. That's what makes it disappointing and "cheap".<br /><br />Of course if your purpose is to make a veneered surface look like it is made from solid wood, then you have to orient the grain of the veneer in a plausible direction, and use the new "board" in a way that makes structural sense. And no, you would not use burl wood anywhere that came under stress.<br /><br />Ruhlmann was not a cabinet maker. He was a painter and a decorator. If all his furniture had been covered in paint you presumably would not be unhappy with what he created, although there wouldn't be much interest in it either.<br /><br />Ruhlmann painted his sculptures with the rich, deep, chatoyant palette that only natural wood can provide. Approaching one of his veneered surfaces is like descending into a fractal image - new details emerge at every scale. You can't get that with paint, or in any other medium I know of.<br /><br />So I think that what you complain about is actually the precise thing that makes Ruhlmann so great. By divorcing veneers from the task of looking like solid wood he actually liberated the craft, took it in new directions and lifted it to new heights. <br /><br />I'm not sure how much attention this blog gets, but I'll bookmark it and check in occasionally to see if the debate continues.<br /><br />Cheers, LorneLorne Carmichaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-42877056385765354392011-09-14T05:23:35.980-04:002011-09-14T05:23:35.980-04:00word to the solid.
word to the real.word to the solid.<br />word to the real.davejhttp://forge.artdesignlife.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-4183063585556452722011-08-17T10:14:55.474-04:002011-08-17T10:14:55.474-04:00Hi Chris –
Once again, another thought-provoking p...Hi Chris –<br />Once again, another thought-provoking post. I must apologize for reading more into your initial post on this topic than intended and unfairly characterizing your point of view. You make a very well-reasoned and compelling case for your position on the use of veneer v. solid wood. Although you and I will likely always disagree with respect to the value/use of veneer, I respect the uncompromising approach you take in both your work and writing. <br />Best Regards,<br />-MattMatt Petersenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01004936338345844062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-39534418913446279072011-08-17T07:37:17.007-04:002011-08-17T07:37:17.007-04:00Bruce,
many thanks for your kind comments. I agre...Bruce,<br /><br />many thanks for your kind comments. I agree that if painting is one's œuvre, then wood is a fine substrate for that and some great work has been done in that regard. as a woodworker however, I tend to think that mother nature is truly the greatest painter of all in terms of the dizzying array of wood we have available to use to make useful objects.<br /><br />Roland,<br /><br />sure, I think plywood has some great qualities as a material (as I noted in post I of this thread), and has been used with great success to make boats and aircraft. Also, of course, when it comes to aircraft, let's not forget the Hughes H-4 Hercules, nicknamed the 'Spruce Goose' (ironic, perhaps, since the wood employed was nearly all birch!). I think they would have preferred aluminum for that plane mind you, but there was a shortage. <br /><br />Thanks for your comment!<br /><br />~CAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-8062044848419323882011-08-17T07:04:47.189-04:002011-08-17T07:04:47.189-04:00How about the technical uses of veneer (or is plyw...How about the technical uses of veneer (or is plywood the correct term in that case)?<br /><br />One of the most beautiful and innovative airplanes ever made (in my opinion, of course) was the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito" rel="nofollow">De Havilland Mosquito</a>, which was built in a innovative balsawood between Canadian birch sandwich construction. The use of plywood construction in aircraft can be traced back to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LFG_Roland_D.II" rel="nofollow">LFG Roland D.II</a> of WW I, but the technique matured in the Mosquito and its descendants.<br /><br />There is a group in New Zealand who are effectively builing a Mosquito from scratch; <a href="http://www.mosquitorestoration.com/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">Mosquito Aircraft restoration</a>. Their gallery pages paint a very intersting picture of how to do techical contruction in wood.Roland Smithhttp://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-75980277433733125152011-08-16T21:19:41.859-04:002011-08-16T21:19:41.859-04:00Chris,
I don't have your intellect but intui...Chris,<br /> I don't have your intellect but intuitively I agree with you. The application of veneer on an MDF substrate used for jigs and throwaways seems deceptive. The stuff is lifeless and smells bad. I could not use it as a scaffold for veneer without feeling like a fraud. That said, I think of the fragility and impermanence of canvas which takes on life and sometimes transcendence when worked by an artist. Pine furniture painted with a vision may be as moving as a work of subtle design and consummate joinery. Points granted for respect of material, but also for the fire of passion.<br /> Thank you for your insight. There's no other woodworker writing who does what you do.<br /> Bruce MackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-3548104781467486512011-08-16T17:40:53.132-04:002011-08-16T17:40:53.132-04:00Simon,
that was most generous of you. I always fe...Simon,<br /><br />that was most generous of you. I always feel my writing could use another few rounds of editing, so your words were encouraging.<br /><br />~CAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-73096936423076314802011-08-16T13:21:02.047-04:002011-08-16T13:21:02.047-04:00I appreciate this series of posts, and can't h...I appreciate this series of posts, and can't help but notice your writing skills are more-or-less impeccable. <br /><br />I'm sure I'll be referencing these in the future.<br /><br />Thank you.Simon Frez-Albrechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15996993725258102695noreply@blogger.com