tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post450932706458868526..comments2023-11-05T06:16:56.961-05:00Comments on the Carpentry Way: The 'Gambrel or Mansard?' ProblemAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-28675839998746505142015-09-26T01:05:32.416-04:002015-09-26T01:05:32.416-04:00Hypotheses are at least a good start. Thanks for y...Hypotheses are at least a good start. Thanks for your comment Patrick.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-59543358785696615062015-09-26T00:16:26.550-04:002015-09-26T00:16:26.550-04:00Pure speculation, but perhaps the commoners, in bu...Pure speculation, but perhaps the commoners, in building their barns, and the internal configuration and use of their barns, more so than the exteriors, led to the use of the newer term. Later home-builders fancying the barn designs transferred the newer term to describe a more or less pre-existing design. All purely hypothetical.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08168802604369029831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-26366203039492349112012-03-01T15:42:09.354-05:002012-03-01T15:42:09.354-05:00Peter,
thanks for your comments and insight - muc...Peter,<br /><br />thanks for your comments and insight - much appreciated! I revised the entry above for 'Klokgevel' - thanks for the info.<br /><br />I'm not so sure about the derivation from Indonesia either; it is a theory i read which i wanted to include. This entry is long overdue for a revision actually.<br /><br />I thank you also for looking to see if you could find the word 'Gambrel' in a Dutch dictionary, and the thoroughness of your search convinces me the word is English (derived from French originally, as noted).<br /><br /><br />~CAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-16193520241749647832012-03-01T15:32:32.694-05:002012-03-01T15:32:32.694-05:00Dear Chris Hall,
I just read your articel about g...Dear Chris Hall,<br /><br />I just read your articel about gambrel in the Dutch language. I had a look on the web on a page with 15 centuries of dutch dictionaries and it does not excist in there.<br />The uilenbord was to close of the roof from penetrating rain water and for ventilation.<br />The idea that the Dutch coppied this type of ending from Indonesia i find hard to beleave becauese this type of roof ending all ready exsisted before the Dutch had contact with Indonesia.<br />Then the Klokgevel is to translate as bell gable not clock gable<br />It has the shape of a bell<br />I hope this is some what helpfull<br /><br />Peter van DiepenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-52888990030064229932010-11-10T17:05:51.144-05:002010-11-10T17:05:51.144-05:00Friar J, thanks for your comments. The question ab...Friar J, thanks for your comments. The question about the relation of the gambrel (slaughterhouse device), gambrel (horse's hock) and the roof form remains an open question. As noted in the post, it depends upon which part of the roof you are viewing - both a hipped gable and a two pitch Mansard have this form of 'dogleg', depending upon one's vantage point.<br /><br />Most North Americans, at least, would agree with you in terms of not wanting to call a gabled roof with two pitches a Mansard, and preferring the term Gambrel', however the French, Germans and Dutch seem quite happy to use the term Mansard, whether the roof be gabled or hipped. <br /><br />It's been a year since this post and I still haven't had the opportunity to re-visit the Library of Congress and research this matter a bit further, but rest assured when I do I will be posting a sequel.<br /><br />ChrisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-72568487163400355782010-11-08T13:22:10.367-05:002010-11-08T13:22:10.367-05:00Also, I dont think I would ever call a gabled roof...Also, I dont think I would ever call a gabled roof a mansard. As I see it the distinction is that mansards are hipped and gambrels are not. Mansards are generally flattened as in the Second Empire, but not necessarily. Mansards usually dont have eaves, but they may, especially the "modern mansards" which are quite different from those of the 1870's.Fr. J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13574036634189124721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-70906171478207048542010-11-08T13:16:08.423-05:002010-11-08T13:16:08.423-05:00I am just wondering if the sense in which gambrel ...I am just wondering if the sense in which gambrel is related to an animal hind leg might be similar to the expression "dog leg" when referring to a bend in the road which is a slight angle. The bend in Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, DC southeast of the White House is often called "the dog leg." I think it just means an obtuse angle, that is, one greater than 90 degrees.Fr. J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13574036634189124721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-46209023659009010212009-10-27T11:42:47.527-04:002009-10-27T11:42:47.527-04:00'the uileborde was originally to provide an ow...'the uileborde was originally to provide an owl nest' So I also read but I doubt this explanation, alhough 200 miles north it can be a different world. I think the board was shaped like (the head) of an owl, hence the name. And served to host pigeons, held for their meat.<br /><br />Looking for a French word (cambré) is a good idea, although I liked my 'gaffeltuig'<br /><br />Succes with your search.<br /><br />DamienDamiennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-29609292349621315192009-10-27T09:06:04.291-04:002009-10-27T09:06:04.291-04:00Hello gentlemen,
thanks for the thoughtful commen...Hello gentlemen,<br /><br />thanks for the thoughtful comments.<br /><br />@Damien: I also looked at that 'hipped roof with owl sign' variant, or 'uileborde'. I didn't come away with anything conclusive in that regard. Unlike the Indonesian hipped gable, which serves as a smoke vent, the uileborde was originally to provide an owl nest and its use was on both gables and hipped gable roofs. In modern times it has become a non-functional decorative element from what I gather. It seemed more a coincidence of roof forms, though the lack of the term 'gambrel' to associate to it in Holland might be significant.<br /><br />@Don: I'm thinking that since the English word 'gambrel' stems from Norman French antecedents, as detailed in the post, there is some likely derivation of that word also in the Dutch language, not from English but from Norman French. Further, as I noted in the blog, one source I came across stated that the word 'gambrill' was present in the Dutch language around 1601, so I'm trying to determine if that is in fact the case or not. It's not looking good for that argument at this point - if the word did exist in Dutch back in 1601 it would appear to no longer exist in the language.<br /><br />As for the idea that the Dutch made its way to the Netherlands from Indonesia - well, it is not my idea, but one I read several years ago that I am now investigating, and it is an idea that does sound plausible in some ways. And, as I said in the blog, the Indonesian hipped gable appears to have found little favor in Holland or other parts of Europe, however some examples are found here in North America. It's by no means a common roof shape, at least the version shown by the Corkhill dictionary, with but a little gablet. In the area where I live, I have come across only one or two roofs in this form.<br /><br />I think one thing is certain at this point, where all I have are some slim threads to pull on in this exploration of the origins of 'gambrel' - the term 'Dutch gable' to describe the hipped gable is erroneous and would be better discarded. I don't see anything wrong with the term 'hipped gable'.<br /><br />~ChrisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-22781661297137463312009-10-26T17:44:07.939-04:002009-10-26T17:44:07.939-04:00Hi,
I found an old Dutch-High German dictionary up...Hi,<br />I found an old Dutch-High German dictionary upstairs in our attic. Now this farmhouse I'm living in is said to be around 200 years old. The land it stands on had been owned by the family we bought it from for more than 300 years, the Mellema family, and this book was there when we moved in. So that is the continuity. I don't know how old this book is because while it seems intact there are no dates in it, but it's old and, while it has a definition of mansard, there is no gambrel.<br />What you write about the evolution of the hip/gable roof, that it made its way to the Netherlands from Indonesia, is the first time I have come across such an idea in what reading I have done on Dutch barn, (which is a term that is nonexistent here unlike, Friesian barn or North Holland barn, or Drents barn...) styles.<br /><br />Greetings<br /><br />Don WagstaffAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-16809622053219541142009-10-26T14:29:32.138-04:002009-10-26T14:29:32.138-04:00I am not a thatching specialist but I think the ex...I am not a thatching specialist but I think the examples shown on the joostdevree site 'Hipped with owl sign' look structurally similar to the Indonesian counterparts but are traditional northern Dutch in making. They seem to me a good way to simplify the problem of finishing the top angles when thatching.<br /> <br />The real Dutch gables as perceived as such in Belgium as facade height regulation and water damage risks make that, for post medieval adjoining houses, gables are oriented the other way around (and look ugly). <br /><br />As for gambrel, you may be looking for 'gaffel' a forked piece of wood 'gabel' in German and more interestingly 'gaffel-getuigd' in Google images where a forked piece is used to make a hooked mast<br /><br />DamienDamiennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-36747381983270774172009-10-25T18:41:50.517-04:002009-10-25T18:41:50.517-04:00Hi,
All I could find just now at this late hour w...Hi, <br />All I could find just now at this late hour which connects these two terms gambrel -n- mansard in a Dutch language context is that gambrel is the English translation for the Dutch word "mansardedak", but I think you already know this, right?. <br />This being the case, would you expect to find this English word (gambrel) in an old Dutch dictionary? Is that what you are trying to establish? That prior to 1850 gambrel was part of the Dutch language?<br />I must confess to no special knowledge of roof forms, terminologies and origins. The truth is I never did see any particular similarities between the barns I see here - Dutch barns you might say - and what in North America are called Dutch barns unless the reference refers to the internal structure that is not obvious from the outside as I have never seen the inside of a Dutch barn in North America. This could go on and maybe I'm missing the point because it is late here now. I will re-read your long article again and maybe I can make inroads on the old dictionary and gambrel stick. All I find just now in terms of animal carcasses is an entirely different system. You must remember though, the Dutch are and presumably always have been odd folks. Oh yes and one other thing, we don't differ in understanding on the relationship between the Dutch word gevel and the English gable. <br /><br />Greetings<br /><br />Don WagstaffAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-40453234018618721592009-10-25T14:44:30.848-04:002009-10-25T14:44:30.848-04:00Thanks so much Don for your contributions to the p...Thanks so much Don for your contributions to the post. It seems to me the word 'gavel' is related pretty strongly to 'gable', and many of the Dutch ones are really stylized facades - I got the word 'facade', by the way, off a Dutch website (in translation mind you, so it could be an erroneous piece of information). <br /><br />The main point though, in regards to actual Dutch Gable roofs is they are completely different than the hipped gables which get termed 'Dutch Gables' in the US and Australia -also the significance, in terms of the overall discussion, that the 'Dutch' are associated to the hipped gable form in North America, despite the misleading terminology. If my theory about the confusion of names for Gambrel/Mansard is true, I ought to be able to find old dictionaries that substantiate this, and hopefully narrow down the time that the name confusion began - I'm guessing around 1850 at this point.<br /><br />Don, any chance you could find out about the use of the word 'gambrill' in an old Dutch dictionary? Or what the Dutch call the 'gambrel stick'? Surely they used a similar piece of equipment...<br /><br />~ChrisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14328401081765407624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-52692998283569821102009-10-25T13:42:16.962-04:002009-10-25T13:42:16.962-04:00Hi,
I am just reading here about the development o...Hi,<br />I am just reading here about the development of a particular regional barn type in the center of Holland and it is referring also to zijgevel - side gable - as if in the Dutch language at least as it is used today, gavel is synonymous with muur or wall. I don't know if any of this is relevant or int'resting.<br /><br />Greetings<br /><br />Don WagstaffAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6261993076995357307.post-7186912670557515622009-10-25T11:32:01.254-04:002009-10-25T11:32:01.254-04:00Hi,
Well even though I'm not Dutch I do live ...Hi,<br /> Well even though I'm not Dutch I do live and build in the Netherlands. The only thing to add that might contribute is that gavel in Dutch can be either front (voorgavel) or back (achtergavel) and so is not strictly referring to a facade but more broadly to the ends of a building. There are sub catagories like you say, trapgavel, klokgavel, puntgavel, ... and these are merely decorative but my house also has voor and achtergavel and these are just the front and back walls.<br />~Greetings<br />DonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com